Tillman down, Bergesen still here

So who thinks that makes sense? I think there is more up side to Tillman, and keeping him here makes more sense. If Bergesen goes down, for the rest of the season, perhaps he'll recapture what made him good last year. He was good today, in the 5th inning. . . .

Tillman has nothing to prove in AAA. Don't know about Bergesen, but Tillman needs to make or break at the major-league level.

Somebody on another board raises an interesting point: These guys go down, get a few good starts in AAA, come back up and get one good start before they fall apart. Whoever is coaching them at Norfolk seems to be able to fix them up pretty consistently. Is Kranitz the problem?

I don't think you can underestimate the adrenaline rush of the first or second outtings. Consider Bergesen, Tillman, Matusz, and Hernandez last year. Then, after a couple outtings, you get a little less keyed up. After all, if you belong in the bigs, you would be relatively "nonchalant" about it.

And then consider that the hitters here are five times better than the AAA guys, and up and down the lineup, somebody can hurt you.

I don't know if Kranitz is any part of the problem. I'm not disagreeing, I just don't know anything.

I think it makes absolute sense to keep Tillman in Norfolk and to quit shuttling him up and down.

The report I hear on him is that his fastball has plenty of velocity but is straight. My understanding is that he was working on a cutter or a splitter down in Norfolk at the time he was most recently called up. As you know, Tillman's most recent call-up was the result of circumstance; I think the injury to Millwood necessitated it.

The bottom line is that if this is true, Tillman has plenty to work on in Norfolk and it may be another year before he should be deemed to ready to pitch in the majors. The club needs to leave him alone down there and let him work on whatever he was working on.

If the problem in this instance is Kranitz, then the problem over the last 11 years has been Ray Miller, Mark Wiley, Leo Mazzone, and so on and so forth until there are positive results in the box scores. How is that logical? Complete and utter bullshit in my opinion.

EDIT: Not saying there isn't a cause to all of this. Young pitchers failing here have been way too consistent and systemic for there not to be a root cause. I'm just saying it's ridiculous to point the finger at Kranitz.

This post has been edited by Career200 on Jul 21 2010, 03:02 PM

Bullshit learning other pitches.What the hell has he been doing since we signed him, learning a fastball? If he needs more work, let him get it at Camden.
Young pitchers fail here because young pitchers fail everywhere. There is lots and lots of young pitchers given a shot every year around the league. There is only a handful of breakouts every year. Only a handful.

I knew you wouldn't like that Milt. But I just don't see it that way.

Young ballplayers fail because young ballplayers fail. That's true regardless of position. It isn't just pitchers. The reason you see it happen so often with pitchers is because so many of them are drafted. The reason for that is simple enough - more than half of every major league roster is made up of pitchers.

I can't tell you what Tillman's been doing because I don't know. It's possible that you've hit on the problem with pitching in the organization. But then again, I don't know what he was doing in the Seattle organization either.

The only thing I can tell you with good certainty is that young ballplayers aren't usually taught how to play baseball in high school or college. What you see those kids do is based almost entirely on native ability. The reason for that is that high school and college coaches are too busy trying to win to teach.

That being the case, it's not hard to figure that a lot of these kids are learning to play in the minors. Don't trivialize things like learning a new pitch either. It's hard to even learn to throw a half-assed meatball pitch. Learning to throw it well enough and consistently enough to get major league hitters out is somethng even more than that. On top of that, coaches aren't going to bring a kid in and start tinkering with his repertoire right away. Chances are, they wanted to see him find a way to succeed with his existing repertoire.

EDIT: Whether he stays in Baltimore or goes down to Norfolk, my basic point is that he needs to stop being shuttled back and forth.

This post has been edited by Career200 on Jul 21 2010, 07:04 PM

I agree.
The objective right now is to have a rotation ready for April. Seems like it would be more convenient to have them compete in Baltimore.

I don't think Tillman is going to learn much by continuing to post a 1.097 WHIP in AAA. If he's going to learn to get major-league hitters out, I think he needs to pitch to major-league hitters.

As far as the logic of Mazzone et al vs. Kranitz, it's not illogical to suggest that the former were great coaches with mediocre talent, and the latter has better talent to work with, but isn't as good a coach. The results on the field are the same. Just sayin'. I haven't been following the minors long enough to know what Penn and those guys from the last few years were projected to be.

I'm not sure why a kid in his 5th professional season should have a "flat" fastball. Hell, I can make a two-seamer break a foot, and I never threw a two-seamer until I was 40 years old.

Regarding Tillman, I'm just passing along things that I've been told from people I find credible on the subject. I've also heard similar things being mentioned by a postgame show guest a couple weeks ago. You guys can take it or leave it.

Sluggo, maybe you just missed your calling as a major league pitcher. I know guys struggle with new pitches all the time. Some guys get it, some guys never do.

As for reasons why a 5th year pro would have a flat fastball, perhaps it's because his other stuff is good enough to get minor league hitters out and no one ever questioned his fastball. Perhaps it's because he's a slow learner. Perhaps it's because he's stubborn and refused to learn a splitter or acknowledge that his fastball wasn't good enough. Perhaps he got bad advice from his early minor league coaches. I really don't know. If you think about it, there are a lot of logical reasons for it though. What I know for sure is that it's really not uncommon for a 22 year old pitcher or 5th year pro to be learning new pitches. It's really not uncommon to see guys arrive in the majors with a flat fastball either.

Like I said, these kids come up through high school and college dominating their peers. Their coaches and everyone around them tell them how great they are and are all too happy to let them dominate by letting them do the things they've always been doing. Most kids just keep chugging along that way, and then when they get to the minors, people start picking at their flaws and reworking them. How well the kids react to that and whether they pick it up depends on a lot of factors.

I was talking with my brother, who works in a front office and has been working all summer preparing for this year's and next year's MLB draft and performing advance scout work on opponents. He was telling me that so many of these kids come in with huge flaws that may never get worked out. He used this year's uber-phenom Bryce Harper as an example of that. Whether you guys want to acknowledge it or not, baseball really isn't an easy game to play at its highest level.

This post has been edited by Career200 on Jul 22 2010, 10:18 AM

The shuttle to Norfolk and back with Tillman is ridiculous. Keep him with the Orioles and let him get used to Major League hitting. We all know this season is a wash. Let these young pitchers get experience for next season.

Dare I say it, but the O's need to do what the Pirates have done. They brought up Alvarez and Tabata, and are getting daily at bats to get MLB experience. There's nothing more Tillman (or Bell for that matter), can do at AAA. Put Tillman in the rotation (if it means a demotion for Bergesen, so be it), and bring Bell back up and make him the starter at 3B. These guys are supposed to be the future. Let them get exposure now to see if they actually can compete in the league instead of wasting their time and talent on buses from Norfolk to Baltimore.

Bingo!

That's all we've heard for years. Rebuilding, development, irons in the fire. Well. we got them, use them or trade them.

Tra la la boom di-ay!